i do know artists that use this as an artist statement/manifesto.
There is no doubt that being an artist takes a great deal of sacrifice: personally and from the people around the artist; art and the artist's life have often been presented (to me) as a dichotomy: the art or the rest.
I'm not so sure I believe in that. I'm not so sure that it isn't just an excuse to be narcissistic and self involved.
cara and i agreed that, say, raising children might also be a good fight. or working for the well-being of others. or...
anyway, it sure sounds pretty.
oh. apres ca, je doit ecrire suelment en francais, parce que, dans les trois prochaines mois, je voudrai faire une immersion totale en francais, pour apprendre ca completment.
alors, desole, mais il faut que j'ecrit en francais.
First, I like the bilingualism - I can follow along enough at this point to get the gist.
Back to the post - I was thinking a little about something like this earlier today, in a way. I recently participated in something called the "Record of the Week Club" (google it) that Mike Petkau has organized over this summer. ROTWC takes three disparate musicians, puts them in a studio with Mike as the engineer, and over the course of one evening these strangers (for the most part) will write and record a song, and Mike will mix it and put it up on the internet for downloading by the next morning. A great idea, and you should all check it out - there are no "bad" tracks, I think, and a lot of great ones.
But as relates to this post, I was listening to the tracks that have been made so far while driving home from Brandon MB, and I was remembering my session in the studio and trying to imagine how the other sessions went, and how ours could have been different or better. What I was thinking was that, for me musically, what I absolutely love the most is to involve as many people as absolutely possible in a project, and to be able to participate and interject things, but to have little to no personal control over the end product. I like to be INSIDE something and see it happen, and to do that you have to RELINQUISH yourself.
I can actually see what I have just said being used to argue both for and against the soliloquy we're talking about. I can relate completely to the idea of entering into the creative process FULLY and COMPLETELY (was that what Gord Downie was talking about??) without reservations. However, I could not use that as a guiding method for my life as a whole, nor do I have any desire to do so. I like to step into things, and step out again. Maybe that's why I like to not have so much control; because the level of responsibility is proportional.
Good Frenching Monsieur Roberts. Make sure you get all your accents(egue, circumflex?) and then I'll really be impressed.
I WAS a Bukowski fan in my twenties, but I am no longer a fan in my thirties.
I believe in trying, but there are lots of things that I admire more. All or nothing isn't something I admire either.
Macro is bang on, and so is Cara, so maybe I din't need to post any of these half fast thoughts. Or maybe I did? Or maybe I'll delete some. Something inside tells me that I won't be remembered as an artist, but rather as the father of Dru and Mae, and hopefully the grandfather of their children.
Regarding what I said, I didn't mean stepping in and out of "my art" (whatever THAT means...) but stepping in and out of projects or specific works, if you will. It's tricky, and I find it's an acquired skill that many of us learn over time.
With songwriting and recording, as in painting and other art forms I am sure, the process is potentially unending, and it's really up to the person doing it to decide when to call it quits. But it's a really necessary step, I think we would all agree. I guess the place I have come to with my own work is to not belabour THAT decision - when the feeling comes to me that it is done, that I am done with it, then I pretty much just stop. And step away from it. I rarely come back and rework things I have done after that, at least not until a great deal of time has passed, which by then is much like starting over anyways.
I might add that I am in general not a very nostalgic person, and don't hold on to a lot of personable memorabilia or reminders of my past, so I think this is part of my personality too. I'm also not entirely sure whether it is a good practice, or whether there's something flawed in it.
I'm sure I will be remembered by my kids much more than by anyone else! As to what exactly they will remember me for, I really can't say...
Ahh nostalgia. I fight with it daily. As much as I profess to "make art and move on", I am a sucker for retracing my footsteps. (as I've made evident numerous times here). I've also stated this rant before... I've no sympathy, or empathy for the "starving artist". That is a choice one makes. Being an artist is no excuse for being a burden on society. If one is so sure of his/her craft, they should not rely on subsidy, or grants to pave their yellow brick road. I know that's not what Charles was stating here, but I've seen that attitude manifest itself in to "grantfare" before. "I am an artist, so pay me with the $$$ off your broken backs, so I don't have to work and wait for inspiration" I feel those folks are in it for the wrong reason. There is nothing wrong with getting finacial help once in a while, but when I read the same names for the past 5-10 years on the grant list, I get a lil' ill. The same to the galleries who ask what art education you have before even looking at your work (yes this one is personal),what does that matter? I guess it means, "you weren't TRAINED to be an artist, your heart can't possibly know of what you do" So, yes, this can be an artist statement. As long as they aren't biting the hand that feeds them, I'm ok with it. And that's all that matters in this world, Waterman approval! LOL
I was thinking. This idea of going all the way is a pretty good one if you are talking about healthy choices (eating carrots), but is ironic with Bokowski 'cause his path is so unconventional, so bad. While I do not care for Bukowski, there are tons of artists who are outcasts for their deviance, and just sometimes, this is awesome. I'm glad some artists have gone too far or in opposite directions or whatever (theater of the absurd and modernism come to mind as movements born from this rejection of normal, again, ironically. For very logical reasons).
I can see Watermans being playful here(LOL's at the end), but I just need to say, I'm sure there have been a ton of names on the grant list over 10 years, and that I don't mind tax money supporting art, especially unconventional (aka groundbreaking) art. That's not to say there isn't room for conventional art too (sheesh). I do recognize the difference between a trained and untrained artist, academically speaking. Either way, it would be ideal if they looked at the painting (or whatever), of visual artists before going to the paperwork, but they deal with many artists in many disciplines. With a fairly strict policy. I think this is just what you said it was , a rant. That's cool, get it off your chest. I bet if you ask nicely James will show you his wall of rejection letters room. =P
(I would have more rejection letters than you all if I wasn't too lazy to apply).
I got an idea, lets have a rejection letter contest. We all put in 100 $ and the winner gets the prize. Whoever gets the most rejection letters in an alloted time wins! Goof game? Everyone in? Just don't comment if you're in. All the "contributors" of our blog are eligible, equaling a grand prize of 3000$!
,,,and the same goes to olympic athletes!!! ha ha, but I kid. I'm not against grants at all, as long as they remain GRANTS. When it is expected as a constant source of income is what troubles me. Being an artist is still a choice as well. I like the rejection idea. It could be a group art project in itself! If someone does recieve one, they get ousted from the blog lol!
As someone who spends a lot of time out on the highways of the prairie provinces, I like the awareness I find there, that we are all living on the bottom of a vast ocean of air. When you think about that for awhile, you begin to sense the true significance of your own ego.
As an aside:
I should also add that punctuation and formatting are
I think thinking that the universe is conspiring to give you things is another type of romanticisation.
Yet I am definitively in agreement that romantacising pain and suffering is not the best approach, kind of adolescent if you will, unless of course you fully commit to something full out, as you also suggest, then pain and suffering may be OK.
And if you to go full out, I figure you'll just come out the other side and understand that it is all pain, suffering, pronoia, etc.
Yet again, I take specific exception to pronoia relative to my metaphysical beliefs.
At the very least, it is you that has the greatest potential to make things happen, no one else, including the universe to a large extent.
Yet if you are generally a hard working, committed, and moral person, I feel the situation is such that you will likely not come to experience anything on the path that you couldn't deal with, and anything that in the end you would not come to conceive as other than a blessing, good or bad.
VERY interesting discussion so far guys - good choice of post...
I wonder how it would be possible to distinguish from something like pronoia as a reality vs. taking things in a certain way due to your frame of mind vs. "karma" (in either sense that it is usually used)? I'm partial to karma in a certain sense... Not so much the "additive" karma that a lot of people think about, where you "earn" good by doing good, but more the idea that certain actions just necessarily lead to certain outcomes.
"Karma" comes from Sanskrit "kar-na" which is "to do/act", and "kar-ma" means "doing/acting" (not the Shakespearean kind!). I don't pretend to know or believe in the current or historical beliefs on karma within Hinduism, but I do believe that my actions do lead to (not entirely but somewhat) predictable outcomes.
I guess my point is, in that way, would it be possible to distinguish between a guiding force behind those outcomes vs. my own intentions?
nope. & yoda said it faster.
ReplyDeletethat was a good conversation, wolfboy.
ReplyDeletei do know artists that use this as an artist statement/manifesto.
There is no doubt that being an artist takes a great deal of sacrifice: personally and from the people around the artist; art and the artist's life have often been presented (to me) as a dichotomy: the art or the rest.
I'm not so sure I believe in that.
I'm not so sure that it isn't just an excuse to be narcissistic and self involved.
I like Cara's uncertainty {I'm not so sure...} and was thinking along the same lines. Quite frankly Charles Bukowski sort of uh, disgusts me. =/
ReplyDeleteJust for kicks, can anyone think of a great artist who DOESN'T try that hard?
yeah...
ReplyDeleteit's the ONLY good fight there is, he says.
whatever.
cara and i agreed that, say, raising children might also be a good fight. or working for the well-being of others. or...
anyway, it sure sounds pretty.
oh. apres ca, je doit ecrire suelment en francais, parce que, dans les trois prochaines mois, je voudrai faire une immersion totale en francais, pour apprendre ca completment.
alors, desole, mais il faut que j'ecrit en francais.
et CA, ca c'est aussi un combat qu'est bon.
casse, bukowski. dans ta visage.
Uh oh, we're going to piss off the Bokowski fan(s).
ReplyDeletewe sure are.
ReplyDelete:)
moi, je suis un "fan" de bukowski.
ReplyDeletemais, au meme temps, je trouve qu'il detestait les femmes, qu'il bu trop, qu'il pensait suelment soi-meme pour tout de son vie.
j'aime certaines choses dans son oeuvre, mais... mais... mais...
pour savoir plus, s'il vous plait lire "good artists, bad choices", une serie que j'ai fait ici au 2006. :)
cara? denis? ren? knack? traduction de ma francais mal?
mot de verification: mygvFLQ !!!
http://alabelforartists.blogspot.com/2006/03/pictoral-reasons-why-not-to-emulate_14.html
ReplyDeleteFirst, I like the bilingualism - I can follow along enough at this point to get the gist.
ReplyDeleteBack to the post - I was thinking a little about something like this earlier today, in a way. I recently participated in something called the "Record of the Week Club" (google it) that Mike Petkau has organized over this summer. ROTWC takes three disparate musicians, puts them in a studio with Mike as the engineer, and over the course of one evening these strangers (for the most part) will write and record a song, and Mike will mix it and put it up on the internet for downloading by the next morning. A great idea, and you should all check it out - there are no "bad" tracks, I think, and a lot of great ones.
But as relates to this post, I was listening to the tracks that have been made so far while driving home from Brandon MB, and I was remembering my session in the studio and trying to imagine how the other sessions went, and how ours could have been different or better. What I was thinking was that, for me musically, what I absolutely love the most is to involve as many people as absolutely possible in a project, and to be able to participate and interject things, but to have little to no personal control over the end product. I like to be INSIDE something and see it happen, and to do that you have to RELINQUISH yourself.
I can actually see what I have just said being used to argue both for and against the soliloquy we're talking about. I can relate completely to the idea of entering into the creative process FULLY and COMPLETELY (was that what Gord Downie was talking about??) without reservations. However, I could not use that as a guiding method for my life as a whole, nor do I have any desire to do so. I like to step into things, and step out again. Maybe that's why I like to not have so much control; because the level of responsibility is proportional.
Just my thoughts...
i like the concept of steping in and out of full and complete immersion into your art.
ReplyDeleteI think this is an amazing skill, if possessed.
Does the artist have the power and control over the art to decide when to come out though?
that rotwc sounds great. Is there a link?
hmmm, I've never seen this movie.
ReplyDeleteGood Frenching Monsieur Roberts. Make sure you get all your accents(egue, circumflex?) and then I'll really be impressed.
I WAS a Bukowski fan in my twenties, but I am no longer a fan in my thirties.
I believe in trying, but there are lots of things that I admire more.
All or nothing isn't something I admire either.
Macro is bang on, and so is Cara, so maybe I din't need to post any of these half fast thoughts. Or maybe I did? Or maybe I'll delete some. Something inside tells me that I won't be remembered as an artist, but rather as the father of Dru and Mae, and hopefully the grandfather of their children.
Regarding what I said, I didn't mean stepping in and out of "my art" (whatever THAT means...) but stepping in and out of projects or specific works, if you will. It's tricky, and I find it's an acquired skill that many of us learn over time.
ReplyDeleteWith songwriting and recording, as in painting and other art forms I am sure, the process is potentially unending, and it's really up to the person doing it to decide when to call it quits. But it's a really necessary step, I think we would all agree. I guess the place I have come to with my own work is to not belabour THAT decision - when the feeling comes to me that it is done, that I am done with it, then I pretty much just stop. And step away from it. I rarely come back and rework things I have done after that, at least not until a great deal of time has passed, which by then is much like starting over anyways.
I might add that I am in general not a very nostalgic person, and don't hold on to a lot of personable memorabilia or reminders of my past, so I think this is part of my personality too. I'm also not entirely sure whether it is a good practice, or whether there's something flawed in it.
I'm sure I will be remembered by my kids much more than by anyone else! As to what exactly they will remember me for, I really can't say...
Ahh nostalgia. I fight with it daily. As much as I profess to "make art and move on", I am a sucker for retracing my footsteps. (as I've made evident numerous times here).
ReplyDeleteI've also stated this rant before...
I've no sympathy, or empathy for the "starving artist". That is a choice one makes. Being an artist is no excuse for being a burden on society. If one is so sure of his/her craft, they should not rely on subsidy, or grants to pave their yellow brick road. I know that's not what Charles was stating here, but I've seen that attitude manifest itself in to "grantfare" before. "I am an artist, so pay me with the $$$ off your broken backs, so I don't have to work and wait for inspiration"
I feel those folks are in it for the wrong reason. There is nothing wrong with getting finacial help once in a while, but when I read the same names for the past 5-10 years on the grant list, I get a lil' ill. The same to the galleries who ask what art education you have before even looking at your work (yes this one is personal),what does that matter?
I guess it means, "you weren't TRAINED to be an artist, your heart can't possibly know of what you do"
So, yes, this can be an artist statement. As long as they aren't biting the hand that feeds them, I'm ok with it. And that's all that matters in this world, Waterman approval! LOL
great post Wolfie!
I was thinking. This idea of going all the way is a pretty good one if you are talking about healthy choices (eating carrots), but is ironic with Bokowski 'cause his path is so unconventional, so bad. While I do not care for Bukowski, there are tons of artists who are outcasts for their deviance, and just sometimes, this is awesome. I'm glad some artists have gone too far or in opposite directions or whatever (theater of the absurd and modernism come to mind as movements born from this rejection of normal, again, ironically. For very logical reasons).
ReplyDeleteI can see Watermans being playful here(LOL's at the end), but I just need to say, I'm sure there have been a ton of names on the grant list over 10 years, and that I don't mind tax money supporting art, especially unconventional (aka groundbreaking) art. That's not to say there isn't room for conventional art too (sheesh). I do recognize the difference between a trained and untrained artist, academically speaking. Either way, it would be ideal if they looked at the painting (or whatever), of visual artists before going to the paperwork, but they deal with many artists in many disciplines. With a fairly strict policy. I think this is just what you said it was , a rant. That's cool, get it off your chest. I bet if you ask nicely James will show you his wall of rejection letters room. =P
(I would have more rejection letters than you all if I wasn't too lazy to apply).
I got an idea, lets have a rejection letter contest. We all put in 100 $ and the winner gets the prize. Whoever gets the most rejection letters in an alloted time wins! Goof game? Everyone in?
Just don't comment if you're in. All the "contributors" of our blog are eligible, equaling a grand prize of 3000$!
,,,and the same goes to olympic athletes!!!
ReplyDeleteha ha, but I kid.
I'm not against grants at all, as long as they remain GRANTS. When it is expected as a constant source of income is what troubles me. Being an artist is still a choice as well.
I like the rejection idea. It could be a group art project in itself! If someone does recieve one, they get ousted from the blog lol!
ibwantbtobwritebsomethingbaboutbthisbbutbasbyoubcanbseebmybkeyboardbisbmessedbup!bbinsteadbofbthebspacebar,bitbtypesbabb!!bbwhatbthebhell???bbwhenbitgsbfixedbiwillbdefinitelybwritebsomethingbaboutbthis
ReplyDelete:(
mycomputeriseffed!!
ReplyDeletewtf!
spacebar=b??
whybohbwhy
that happened to me after spilling a drink on my keyboard many moons ago
ReplyDeletehere
ReplyDeletegoes
for
sure,
complete
surrender
to
your
path
whatever
it
may
be
there
are
nasty
things
to
handle
on
any
path
avoid
the
romanticization
of
pain
and
suffering
and
disconnection
(i
speak
from
experience)
what
about
pronoia,
the
idea
that
the
universe
is
conspiring
to
shower
you
with
blessings
much
less
self
indulgent
self
destruction
is
boring!
wish
me
luck
with
my
spacebar!
It's like a poem now.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who spends a lot of time out on the highways of the prairie provinces, I like the awareness I find there, that we are all living on the bottom of a vast ocean of air. When you think about that for awhile, you begin to sense the true significance of your own ego.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside:
I should also add that
punctuation and
formatting are
key
to poetry;
in
my
opinion.
* spacebar destruction is NOT boring !
(...tears
ReplyDeletespacebar
out
of
computer)
more
ReplyDeleteon
pronoia
from
the
author
who
introduced
the
concept
to
me:
http://freewillastrology.com/beauty/saints.shtml
I think thinking that the universe is conspiring to give you things is another type of romanticisation.
ReplyDeleteYet I am definitively in agreement that romantacising pain and suffering is not the best approach, kind of adolescent if you will, unless of course you fully commit to something full out, as you also suggest, then pain and suffering may be OK.
And if you to go full out, I figure you'll just come out the other side and understand that it is all pain, suffering, pronoia, etc.
Yet again, I take specific exception to pronoia relative to my metaphysical beliefs.
At the very least, it is you that has the greatest potential to make things happen, no one else, including the universe to a large extent.
Yet if you are generally a hard working, committed, and moral person, I feel the situation is such that you will likely not come to experience anything on the path that you couldn't deal with, and anything that in the end you would not come to conceive as other than a blessing, good or bad.
VERY interesting discussion so far guys - good choice of post...
ReplyDeleteI wonder how it would be possible to distinguish from something like pronoia as a reality vs. taking things in a certain way due to your frame of mind vs. "karma" (in either sense that it is usually used)? I'm partial to karma in a certain sense... Not so much the "additive" karma that a lot of people think about, where you "earn" good by doing good, but more the idea that certain actions just necessarily lead to certain outcomes.
"Karma" comes from Sanskrit "kar-na" which is "to do/act", and "kar-ma" means "doing/acting" (not the Shakespearean kind!). I don't pretend to know or believe in the current or historical beliefs on karma within Hinduism, but I do believe that my actions do lead to (not entirely but somewhat) predictable outcomes.
I guess my point is, in that way, would it be possible to distinguish between a guiding force behind those outcomes vs. my own intentions?
I would argue that they are one in the same thing.
ReplyDeleteYou treat the environment like sh-t, and it'll treat you like sh-t.
:)
And by the way, I still think Bukowski rocks. Ya, he sucks, but he is in a sense the best and worst of the world.
ReplyDeleteAnd really, what more do we want from artists?
moi, je suis un "fan" de bukowski.
ReplyDeletemais, en même temps, je trouve qu'il détestait les femmes, qu'il buvait trop, qu'il pensait seulement à lui-même pendant toute sa vie.
j'aime certaines choses dans son oeuvre, mais... mais... mais...
pour savoir plus, s'il vous plait lire "good artists, bad choices", une serie que j'ai fait ici en 2006. :)
cara? denis? ren? knack? traduction de mon mauvais francais?
Hah! That's fun. I'd give him a B-
ReplyDeleteDebemos de escribir en differentes idiomas.
ReplyDeleteDenis, no te preocupes de la traducion.
Es muy fun, no?
:)
L337 ftw!
ReplyDeleteha! merci beaucoup denis.
ReplyDeletepour moi, un B- est un grand amellioration, quand tu pense que il y a un an et demi que j'apprenais le francais.
et... je DOIT apprendre l'usage de les accents.
p.s. non... pas "apprenais". apprendrait?
ReplyDeletemaudit tabernak bordel de merde je n'apprendrai jamais cette langue!!!