His song Madalyn's Bones... let's see if I can remember the story. There was a woman named Madalyn (can't remember last name) who founded the American Atheist Society (not sure if that's the correct name...) and managed to have the Lord's Prayer removed from schools in the U.S. Her son converted to Christianity at some point. She disappeared later on, and was found to have been murdered. Her son wished to have her body buried in a Christian ceremony... not sure what happened eventually, but that's what the song is about.
how do you not teach religion in school? one might argue that
a) there is a dominant christian theme in education (lord's prayer or not) b) there is a need to include the teaching (different than proselytize) of the "world" religions and also to allow people the space to express their faiths in school. I'm talking about multifaith expressions...I'm actually interested in this, because my own students in public school had complained that they knew nothing about religions/spirituality... and many expressed a desire to know more about it.
I'm agnostic about the whole thing.(heh, just kidding).
I distinctly recall being very uncomfortable during recitation of the lord's prayer when I was in school. I was not brought with any sort of religious background (aside from the fact that my dad had lots of reading material around on Buddhism, Daoism etc. - but we never discussed any of it), and the entire concept of prayer was never discussed nor explained to me, which made me feel very much like an outsider. I was extremely relieved when we stopped saying it in school, which was somewhere around grade 5 or 6 (I'm not sure why it ended).
Pretty close, that's for sure. Although I DO remember having discussions in grade 2 or 3 about the national anthem, the flag, etc. so that at least I had some understanding of what it was about and what it meant. The lord's prayer - nothing.
i went to religious schools my whole life, and I left far less religious than I might have been otherwise. although I think that I'm still trying to shake some of the "good" "bad" learning that i did there...
I think that the lord's prayer is a good example of the religious nature of school that is taken for granted, now less overt beliefs that informs school practices, values etc. and that need explanation and awareness, and even counter points from different traditions...I mean O Canada has the phrase "God keep our land" and whether that's a reference to God through a christian lens or not, it is still worth unpacking for kids.
I also hope that my comment "how do you not teach religion in school" was taken to mean that I think that there are protestant themes that dominate public education, and that it likely makes many people uncomfortable and feel like outsiders...
I just wanted to say more that there should be viewpoints that even out that point of view in school...
I think religion should definitely be taught in schools, not preached, but taught. It is an integral part of understanding so many other subjects (histories in particular), it would be hard to avoid (as Cara mentions). I think there shouldn't be a mandatory prayer, but there could be time allowed for people who want that (maybe they can come to school a bit early or something =).
Agreed about its relevance to history - but what would you do prior to that becoming a topic of study in school (i.e. in the early grades)? I think we need to consider this really carefully when it comes to young children, especially. A child of 3 or 7 (my childrens' ages) does not ordinarily CHOOSE to be religious at that age - they are instead influenced to be so. And the influence does not have to be very strong or overt for it to be felt and complied with. A child who might not want to disappoint their parents/cultural group etc., when presented with the "opportunity" to engage in a religious activity at school might very well "choose" to partake in it. I'm not saying this is the case for even the majority, but for those whom it does apply it can be like a trap one cannot escape.
If we are going to "teach" religion in school, then I think we need to be very clear that teaching is what we are doing, and not something else under the justification of education. I really do consider this a serious matter.
I don't believe stuffing all religion under the carpet helps society at all. I think it leads to a greater ignorance and fear which breeds...you know what. I especially don't like how it seems fair to beat up on Chritianity, but similiar critizisms to any other religion would be considered spreading hate. That's not a biased opinion, I don't consider myself religious at all.
agreed. this is a serious matter, and I think the point you made about "opportunity" and "choice" is important. It's hard to ask a young child to "choose" when in fact there are strong forces at work. Students begin to learn about history from very early on, it's just not formalized like we do in secondary school, for example they learn about the community and "why" certain buildings or groups have a presence, etc. this is history, so when you see a synagogue or Ukranian Cathedral architecture you make reference to religion...
That being said there isn't much about school that is neutral. What we teach about, how we assess students, how we organize students, teachers and parents comes to rest at the intersection of some very powerful interests.
No one has asked me if I object to "preparing my child for the global economy and the workforce", which seems to be the emphasis for curriculum and school practices right now, in fact while I don't think we can change the globalized nature of the economy at this point, i still want my daughter educated in a critical democratic manner, learning to inquire and question the world around her. Instead she's being prepared to be a compliant, efficient member of the workforce, to value pathalogical individualism and competition... okay, end of tirade I could say so much more, that I'll save it for my thesis... but my point is there is much that needs to be questioned about schools and if we think that just because schools claim neutrality that they are, I think we are sadly mistaken.
I think that there could be a way to make space for religions but also to make space for family beliefs that are outside of organized religion, and there doesn't have to be agreement only a space for dialogue and understanding, and also a space to resist.
by the way. Bluemask, I agree that it is way easier pick on christianity. I think this might have to do with power, in the North American context, but it's still not fair, I'm so irritated when people do thinks like neutralize religion, like calling things a "Winter Festival".
I agree very much with your points about our Youth Worker Training System! [Mind you, I sometimes wish I had looked on my university career a LITTLE bit more as a path to a job of some sort (it never even crossed my mind once during my B.A. to follow my degree up with an actual JOB!)]
Regarding "picking on Christianity", I guess I don't really pick up on that much because it's not my tradition. I don't try to bash it, but I don't really get or understand it either (I mean what I perceive to be the everyday, traditional things: going to church, praying, reading the bible etc.) But keep in mind that, for those of us who aren't connected to it, it's this omnipresent mysterious "thing", present in every neighbourhood, taken for granted by those who are part of it - it's easy to feel a little oppressed by the whole thing. I suspect that often times Christians may not realize how their institutions invade and impact the lives of people who are not part of their religion. Take funerals, for example. Every funeral I have every attended, for friends or family, has had some sort of religious component to it - either it was in a church, or a pastor (?) spoke or officiated etc. I have always, every time, felt very uncomfortable by their presence, but especially so at my younger brother's funeral. He wasn't religious, my family wasn't religious. We never attended a church in our entire lives, I know we did not grow up with a bible in the house - why was a Christian religious figure there? I suppose I could have said more about it at the time, but it was really wasn't the most important thing at the time (he had just died days earlier). Anyways, my point being that Christianity pervades our culture in ways that most people who are part of it do not see, but that are keenly felt by those who are not.
As for Christmas, Easter etc. - I don't see why we can't have those, but have something for other people too. In all seriousness, I never even knew Easter had anything to do with religion until I was about 12 years old! Now, I try not to do anything to participate in it with my family, for the simple fact that we are not Christian. But Christmas is difficult - I don't want to participate in a religious celebration that I am not part of, but it is also a wider cultural event, obviously. However, I really dislike many of the materialistic aspects of that side of it, too! So what's left for the rest of us?? Winter Festival doesn't sound too bad to me...
such a good point about how pervasive Christianity is, and I grew up in a Christian tradition (that's a whole other discussion), and now have the reverse awareness, I didn't notice it before and now after not making that tradition part of my life, and after years, I'm finally able to see how pervasive and yes, likely oppressive. Christianity has that colonizing "urge" i think, but again I don't want to take away from people who adhere to it and have genuine faith, not all Christians have that colonizing urge...anyways.
I'm sorry that happend in relation to your brother's funeral. My grandfather died (he was a staunch atheist, and he used to secretly give me copies of books on atheism, my mom always confiscated) anyways, he passed away on vacation in Italy, and was buried with a full blown catholic funeral, to this day it makes me really upset. In Winnipeg we had a memorial that was non-religious.
About the celebrations, I think it's a good point, and in private homes we can all do as we please I guess the trouble is a "public" institution" has different issues.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a secular way for people to celebrate together, I am irritated when the "winter festival" is just Christmas in disguise or when it takes away from the practices and traditions of Christians...
important stuff for us to consider when our children go to school...
Lately I've been wondering how religious I would be if I hadn't grown up as a Roman Catholic.
I've never really identified with Catholicism beyond my cultural context (sucre a la creme + jesus = franco manitobans), and I always just assumed that this meant I wasn't cut out for religion.
But the thing is I distinctly remember praying as a small child, and I know that I did this on my own initiative, because my parents never prayed nor did they talk about religion or spirituality in the home. They carted us to church every Sunday, which I hated (sitting, standing, sitting, standing), and that was that.
My praying didn't last long, ironically enough because of the education I received in my catholicism classes at school (no I did not go to private school, but franco public school is pretty close, minus the class bias). For many of the reasons that I understand far better now, 'ol RC didn't work for me, and that was the end of my praying life.
But you know, I think there was something really honest about my youthful desire to pray. I'm realizing that now, more than ever. Out here I live on the Ganga, and I watch people honour its sacred life every morning and every night through rituals of all kinds. Especially at sunrise, when I sit here watching the fiery heat of the sun reflecting off the the cool surface of this sacred river, watching person after person physically honour this river, this earth, their bodies, their souls, and God. And I think I am beginning to understand how the very ritual of expressing such unending gratitude and respect for life grounds the individual, not because it gives her answers, but because it reminds her that she is alive, and that she is a part of "this", whatever this is. This is the benefit of ritualizing the union of body and soul, what I think is so woefully underestimated in western society.
So, what am I saying...just some thoughts, not so related to the discussion at hand.
As for the winter festival,well, so be it. I think we should all participate in cultural institutions freely and creatively, adapting them to our own customs and beliefs. But we should also be aware of where it comes from, no? I am really irritated by this growing tendency to view all religious references as dark spots to be erased (head scarves, 'merry christmas', turbans, etc). How is our society tolerant if it can't perceive the difference between accepting the institutions of others and subscribing to their beliefs?
And as to private school and class biases, I'm sorry, I know I know, but I love them.
Even though my schooling was based completely on issues of equity and justice, it was also very much steeped in knowing that there are rich folk and poor folk, and this was meant to distinguish not only between economic status, but moral status too.
It does to me. I've never been able to identify with prayer as a way of asking something. It seems almost naive to me, that we should receive the answers just by asking for them.
I'd like to add that prayer doesn't have to be about asking for things.
Sometimes when I'm putting Dru to bed I ask him about his day, and kind've go over it, being thankful for the good times and the things learned. For me this is prayer.
And I don't think there is a right way to school either, just so many different ways, and adding religious rituals to schooling can have positive affects. Not for everyone of course.
"Judging someone's moral status by their parents' ability or desire to send them to private school - I have trouble with thinking this is ok."
This is definitely not OK, and not what I mean.
What I mean is that those class biases are deeply rooted within me, and using the latest sociological craze, they are my habitus, which helps me within social fields, and thus plays some role in my survival.
Wasn't somebody just talking about the interlisation of external states, and the externalisation of internal states?
Again, what's scary is that this has implications for vitality, i.e., how long and well one lives.
And that is recognised as unfair, and immoral, yet this conclusion is at once based on this notion of social class.
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30 comments:
Was this inspired by Gurf Morlix?
No, please explain though...
His song Madalyn's Bones... let's see if I can remember the story. There was a woman named Madalyn (can't remember last name) who founded the American Atheist Society (not sure if that's the correct name...) and managed to have the Lord's Prayer removed from schools in the U.S. Her son converted to Christianity at some point. She disappeared later on, and was found to have been murdered. Her son wished to have her body buried in a Christian ceremony... not sure what happened eventually, but that's what the song is about.
Hmm, interesting.
My drawing was a request for the Uniter to accompany an article on the subject.
I like it, especially the bottom two panes.
Word: compunc
James, you compunc me.
Heh, weirdo.
A strong uneasiness caused by a sense of guilt?
It must be a catholic trait.
how do you not teach religion in school? one might argue that
a) there is a dominant christian theme in education (lord's prayer or not)
b) there is a need to include the teaching (different than proselytize) of the "world" religions and also to allow people the space to express their faiths in school. I'm talking about multifaith expressions...I'm actually interested in this, because my own students in public school had complained that they knew nothing about religions/spirituality... and many expressed a desire to know more about it.
I'm agnostic about the whole thing.(heh, just kidding).
I distinctly recall being very uncomfortable during recitation of the lord's prayer when I was in school. I was not brought with any sort of religious background (aside from the fact that my dad had lots of reading material around on Buddhism, Daoism etc. - but we never discussed any of it), and the entire concept of prayer was never discussed nor explained to me, which made me feel very much like an outsider. I was extremely relieved when we stopped saying it in school, which was somewhere around grade 5 or 6 (I'm not sure why it ended).
Could nationalism, like singing O'Canada, be considered religious? I miss that.
Pretty close, that's for sure. Although I DO remember having discussions in grade 2 or 3 about the national anthem, the flag, etc. so that at least I had some understanding of what it was about and what it meant. The lord's prayer - nothing.
i went to religious schools my whole life, and I left far less religious than I might have been otherwise. although I think that I'm still trying to shake some of the "good" "bad" learning that i did there...
I think that the lord's prayer is a good example of the religious nature of school that is taken for granted, now less overt beliefs that informs school practices, values etc. and that need explanation and awareness, and even counter points from different traditions...I mean O Canada has the phrase "God keep our land" and whether that's a reference to God through a christian lens or not, it is still worth unpacking for kids.
I also hope that my comment "how do you not teach religion in school" was taken to mean that I think that there are protestant themes that dominate public education, and that it likely makes many people uncomfortable and feel like outsiders...
I just wanted to say more that there should be viewpoints that even out that point of view in school...
I miss singing "God save the Queen"
I think religion should definitely be taught in schools, not preached, but taught. It is an integral part of understanding so many other subjects (histories in particular), it would be hard to avoid (as Cara mentions). I think there shouldn't be a mandatory prayer, but there could be time allowed for people who want that (maybe they can come to school a bit early or something =).
Agreed about its relevance to history - but what would you do prior to that becoming a topic of study in school (i.e. in the early grades)? I think we need to consider this really carefully when it comes to young children, especially. A child of 3 or 7 (my childrens' ages) does not ordinarily CHOOSE to be religious at that age - they are instead influenced to be so. And the influence does not have to be very strong or overt for it to be felt and complied with. A child who might not want to disappoint their parents/cultural group etc., when presented with the "opportunity" to engage in a religious activity at school might very well "choose" to partake in it. I'm not saying this is the case for even the majority, but for those whom it does apply it can be like a trap one cannot escape.
If we are going to "teach" religion in school, then I think we need to be very clear that teaching is what we are doing, and not something else under the justification of education. I really do consider this a serious matter.
I don't believe stuffing all religion under the carpet helps society at all. I think it leads to a greater ignorance and fear which breeds...you know what. I especially don't like how it seems fair to beat up on Chritianity, but similiar critizisms to any other religion would be considered spreading hate. That's not a biased opinion, I don't consider myself religious at all.
agreed.
this is a serious matter, and I think the point you made about "opportunity" and "choice" is important. It's hard to ask a young child to "choose" when in fact there are strong forces at work.
Students begin to learn about history from very early on, it's just not formalized like we do in secondary school, for example they learn about the community and "why" certain buildings or groups have a presence, etc. this is history, so when you see a synagogue or Ukranian Cathedral architecture you make reference to religion...
That being said there isn't much about school that is neutral. What we teach about, how we assess students, how we organize students, teachers and parents comes to rest at the intersection of some very powerful interests.
No one has asked me if I object to "preparing my child for the global economy and the workforce", which seems to be the emphasis for curriculum and school practices right now, in fact while I don't think we can change the globalized nature of the economy at this point, i still want my daughter educated in a critical democratic manner, learning to inquire and question the world around her. Instead she's being prepared to be a compliant, efficient member of the workforce, to value pathalogical individualism and competition...
okay, end of tirade I could say so much more, that I'll save it for my thesis... but my point is there is much that needs to be questioned about schools and if we think that just because schools claim neutrality that they are, I think we are sadly mistaken.
I think that there could be a way to make space for religions but also to make space for family beliefs that are outside of organized religion, and there doesn't have to be agreement only a space for dialogue and understanding, and also a space to resist.
by the way. Bluemask, I agree that it is way easier pick on christianity. I think this might have to do with power, in the North American context, but it's still not fair, I'm so irritated when people do thinks like neutralize religion, like calling things a "Winter Festival".
Lots of things to talk about here...
I agree very much with your points about our Youth Worker Training System! [Mind you, I sometimes wish I had looked on my university career a LITTLE bit more as a path to a job of some sort (it never even crossed my mind once during my B.A. to follow my degree up with an actual JOB!)]
Regarding "picking on Christianity", I guess I don't really pick up on that much because it's not my tradition. I don't try to bash it, but I don't really get or understand it either (I mean what I perceive to be the everyday, traditional things: going to church, praying, reading the bible etc.) But keep in mind that, for those of us who aren't connected to it, it's this omnipresent mysterious "thing", present in every neighbourhood, taken for granted by those who are part of it - it's easy to feel a little oppressed by the whole thing. I suspect that often times Christians may not realize how their institutions invade and impact the lives of people who are not part of their religion. Take funerals, for example. Every funeral I have every attended, for friends or family, has had some sort of religious component to it - either it was in a church, or a pastor (?) spoke or officiated etc. I have always, every time, felt very uncomfortable by their presence, but especially so at my younger brother's funeral. He wasn't religious, my family wasn't religious. We never attended a church in our entire lives, I know we did not grow up with a bible in the house - why was a Christian religious figure there? I suppose I could have said more about it at the time, but it was really wasn't the most important thing at the time (he had just died days earlier). Anyways, my point being that Christianity pervades our culture in ways that most people who are part of it do not see, but that are keenly felt by those who are not.
As for Christmas, Easter etc. - I don't see why we can't have those, but have something for other people too. In all seriousness, I never even knew Easter had anything to do with religion until I was about 12 years old! Now, I try not to do anything to participate in it with my family, for the simple fact that we are not Christian. But Christmas is difficult - I don't want to participate in a religious celebration that I am not part of, but it is also a wider cultural event, obviously. However, I really dislike many of the materialistic aspects of that side of it, too! So what's left for the rest of us?? Winter Festival doesn't sound too bad to me...
such a good point about how pervasive Christianity is, and I grew up in a Christian tradition (that's a whole other discussion), and now have the reverse awareness, I didn't notice it before and now after not making that tradition part of my life, and after years, I'm finally able to see how pervasive and yes, likely oppressive. Christianity has that colonizing "urge" i think, but again I don't want to take away from people who adhere to it and have genuine faith, not all Christians have that colonizing urge...anyways.
I'm sorry that happend in relation to your brother's funeral. My grandfather died (he was a staunch atheist, and he used to secretly give me copies of books on atheism, my mom always confiscated) anyways, he passed away on vacation in Italy, and was buried with a full blown catholic funeral, to this day it makes me really upset.
In Winnipeg we had a memorial that was non-religious.
About the celebrations, I think it's a good point, and in private homes we can all do as we please I guess the trouble is a "public" institution" has different issues.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a secular way for people to celebrate together, I am irritated when the "winter festival" is just Christmas in disguise or when it takes away from the practices and traditions of Christians...
important stuff for us to consider when our children go to school...
Lately I've been wondering how religious I would be if I hadn't grown up as a Roman Catholic.
I've never really identified with Catholicism beyond my cultural context (sucre a la creme + jesus = franco manitobans), and I always just assumed that this meant I wasn't cut out for religion.
But the thing is I distinctly remember praying as a small child, and I know that I did this on my own initiative, because my parents never prayed nor did they talk about religion or spirituality in the home. They carted us to church every Sunday, which I hated (sitting, standing, sitting, standing), and that was that.
My praying didn't last long, ironically enough because of the education I received in my catholicism classes at school (no I did not go to private school, but franco public school is pretty close, minus the class bias). For many of the reasons that I understand far better now, 'ol RC didn't work for me, and that was the end of my praying life.
But you know, I think there was something really honest about my youthful desire to pray. I'm realizing that now, more than ever. Out here I live on the Ganga, and I watch people honour its sacred life every morning and every night through rituals of all kinds. Especially at sunrise, when I sit here watching the fiery heat of the sun reflecting off the the cool surface of this sacred river, watching person after person physically honour this river, this earth, their bodies, their souls, and God. And I think I am beginning to understand how the very ritual of expressing such unending gratitude and respect for life grounds the individual, not because it gives her answers, but because it reminds her that she is alive, and that she is a part of "this", whatever this is. This is the benefit of ritualizing the union of body and soul, what I think is so woefully underestimated in western society.
So, what am I saying...just some thoughts, not so related to the discussion at hand.
As for the winter festival,well, so be it. I think we should all participate in cultural institutions freely and creatively, adapting them to our own customs and beliefs. But we should also be aware of where it comes from, no? I am really irritated by this growing tendency to view all religious references as dark spots to be erased (head scarves, 'merry christmas', turbans, etc). How is our society tolerant if it can't perceive the difference between accepting the institutions of others and subscribing to their beliefs?
I don't think one should pray, it has all been given already, and if you can't make it happen, don't bother asking, as an answer will come regardless.
Yet that said, I believe my life is living, breathing, walking prayer.
Does that make sense?
And as to private school and class biases, I'm sorry, I know I know, but I love them.
Even though my schooling was based completely on issues of equity and justice, it was also very much steeped in knowing that there are rich folk and poor folk, and this was meant to distinguish not only between economic status, but moral status too.
It does to me. I've never been able to identify with prayer as a way of asking something. It seems almost naive to me, that we should receive the answers just by asking for them.
Doing seems better.
Judging someone's moral status by their parents' ability or desire to send them to private school - I have trouble with thinking this is ok.
I'd like to add that prayer doesn't have to be about asking for things.
Sometimes when I'm putting Dru to bed I ask him about his day, and kind've go over it, being thankful for the good times and the things learned. For me this is prayer.
And I don't think there is a right way to school either, just so many different ways, and adding religious rituals to schooling can have positive affects. Not for everyone of course.
"Judging someone's moral status by their parents' ability or desire to send them to private school - I have trouble with thinking this is ok."
This is definitely not OK, and not what I mean.
What I mean is that those class biases are deeply rooted within me, and using the latest sociological craze, they are my habitus, which helps me within social fields, and thus plays some role in my survival.
Wasn't somebody just talking about the interlisation of external states, and the externalisation of internal states?
Again, what's scary is that this has implications for vitality, i.e., how long and well one lives.
And that is recognised as unfair, and immoral, yet this conclusion is at once based on this notion of social class.
Like Onosson, I too get caught in loops.
Word verification: bubancen
I guess we can just call it my bubancen.
And doing that with Dru is amazing James, you're an awesome Dad.
Argh, I've got a touch of the bubancen.
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